New regulations for fire bottle refill and service...

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Tom Bootz

New regulations for fire bottle refill and service...

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Posts: 91

03/25/08 16:44:43

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Maybe most of you are more up to speed on this stuff than I seem to be. But I nearly had to buy a new fire bottle because of the notice below. I highlighted the important part in red.

link here:
http://www.spa-direct.co.uk/news/detail.asp?newsID=20
Text below:

"New regulations for bottle refills and servicing

National and international requirements for pressurised equipment.

14/2/08

Due to SPA DESIGN'S ongoing product and safety reviews, it has been brought to our attention by authorities and insurance companies that we must comply with both national and international requirements for pressurised equipment.

This will mean that our current fire system service and refill procedure will have to change.

Under FIA/MSA Regulations, hand held and plumbed - in systems must be serviced every 2 years.

We regret that SPA DESIGN can only maintain SPA DESIGN bottles and other makes of cylinders should be returned to the original manufacturer. (Lifeline, FEV, etc)

Alloy and steel bottles will have a life span of 10 years from date of manufacturer. ALL carbon fibre bottles will have a life span of 2 years.

Bottles that have not adhered to the 2 year service schedule will not be serviced.

Cylinders that have been modified or not serviced by SPA DESIGN, or its authorised service dealers and units that have tampered or modified labels will not be accepted for service.

SPA DESIGN LTD reserve the right on the grounds of safety to reject a cylinder for service if it is felt that a bottle has sustained external damage and can not be safely repaired.

We are sorry for any inconvenience that this may cause, but this issue should be seen as a real safety concern to all parties.

Should you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact us.

SPA DESIGN LTD and its associated companies reserve the right to change specifications of parts, kits and dimensions without prior announcement."

Tom

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Clark Lincoln

#1

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Posts: 715

03/25/08 18:30:38

Tom - I'm confused. (not unusual...) If we have a fire system other than SPA mfg. will it be legal? And do we have to have it serviced every 2 yrs? And what does "serviced" mean. And is there a change to the GCR reflecting all this?? Clark

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Tom Bootz

#2

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Posts: 92

03/25/08 19:35:02

All I can speak to is the SPA system. "Technically" if it hasn't been serviced by the "service by date" on the sticker the SPA dealer isn't supposed to take care of it. Which means you get to buy a new bottle. In my case servicing was an inspection, discharge, and recharge.

I don't think the GCR changed but it does state in 9.3.22.A.7: All fire systems shall be serviced according to manufacturer's specifications.

SPA AFFF bottles have a 2 year service requirement on the label.

My main purpose was to make folks aware of the situation. If you have a spare bottle laying around it might not be up to snuff.

On the other hand I might be the last one to wake up.

Tom

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Derek Harling

#3

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Posts: 698

03/25/08 19:37:29

Out of interest - how often are fire bottles used?
And how often have they been successful in extinguishing fires (or significantly reducing them)?

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matt1racer

fire system

#4

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Posts: 11

03/26/08 11:05:52

Derek, I have been doing this stuff since the late 70's and only had a couple instances of fire due to catastrophic engine melt down and the course workers used their bottles to extinguish those saving the trouble of refilling the car system. I did once have an accidental bottle go off which we ended up buying a new one as it wasnt refillable back in the old Atlantic days and it wasnt real cheap then but just the way it goes sometimes. In my opinion, i want my driver to have an up to snuff system in my car simply because if there is a big shunt with fire and he cant get out he will depend on it until crews can get there to help, perhaps obvious why its there in the first place. Whether people go through the effort to keep there systems up to date, filled, ect. is personal choice until it becomes something that is rigorously checked like seat belt age, helmet spec's ect. just my two cents.
cheers
mattracer

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Derek Harling

#5

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Posts: 699

03/26/08 19:25:36

Matt - thx - I don't disagree with anything you've said - I was just musing about safety priorities etc.

I've been competing for over 50 years now and have never seen a vehicle fire at a track, nor been at an event where there was one to my knowledge. I'm not doubting they do occur - just wondering how frequently. And then in those infrequent occasions when there is a fire do the fire bottles we install actually do any good? I've never heard anyone say "Boy those fire systems sure are great, I just pushed the button and the fire went out'.

Does anyone have any statistics, or even opinions, just musing . . . . . . .

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David Arken

Fire

#6

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Posts: 607

03/26/08 23:50:15

It would take more than all my digits to count the fires I have seen in my 38 years of SCCA racing.
David

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matt1racer

effectiveness...

#7

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Posts: 12

03/27/08 08:41:09

Derek
I dont have any statistics's on this but i would say in my opinion that in vehicle systems do help although they may not on there own totally extinguish a really bad fire they will buy some time until external help can arrive.
cheers
matt

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Bevans6.s2racing

#8

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Posts: 6

03/28/08 08:52:33

NASCAR has a car on fire about every week. ALMS had a big fire in a Corvette with injury to the driver a couple of years ago. (Dale Jr guesting in the car). On a local scene, two Formula Fords had fires season before last at events that I was also racing at. One modern, one Vintage.

Brian

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GonMad SPBG

#9

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Posts: 420

03/28/08 11:45:55

No statistics, but we had a good one a couple of years ago. Our Baby Grand with the turbo Hayabusa had a Canton filter on the bellypan at the rear of the engine. It blew out an O-ring, and started to fill up the bellypan, while also spraying a little oil on the exhaust pipe. We saw the smoke from the pits and told Don to come in. What we didn't know was that the airflow through the engine compartment was keeping the oil spray away from the turbo, until he slowed down at the pit entrance. Once it hit the turbo and flashed, it lit up all of the oil in the bellypan as well, and the car pretty much exploded in flame, which flames shooting out both wheelwells and over the windshield. Luckily he was in front of the SFR firetruck at the time, and just stopped and bailed out. The firetruck completed the damage by shooting a solid stream of water in the fenderwell, thereby shooting flaming oil all over the inside of the body and burning it up completely. We had to completely rebody the car.

Oh, and the smoke was so intense that Don couldn't find the fire bottle release, so he just bailed out instead.

Marty

Marty Bose - #1 Gopher, GonMad Racing

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Stan

#10

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Posts: 1792

03/28/08 12:54:47

So, if they can't send you a refilled bottle, how does one buy a fire bottle in the first place?

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glenn cooper

Fires and whatnot.

#11

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Posts: 425

03/28/08 19:38:00

I've seen a few, including one this past weekend at Rd Atl, right in front of me. I'm of the opinion that the on board system is there to buy the driver some time, and if it actually extinguishes the blaze - all the better.
I'm not sure if there are any halon systems left out there in use, but someone once mentioned to me that they thought it would be best, if halon is being used, to come to a stop prior to pulling the handle. That way it would keep more of the halon under the engine cover, as opposed to the inlet air blowing it (the halon) right out the back. It made sense to me...
I've had a system set off by a helper / crew guy on the Speads in '06. It cost quite a bit ($250-ish) to have the foam style electrically activated system refilled and re-armed.

GC

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ROFracing

Fires and systems

#12

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Posts: 19

03/28/08 20:18:24

Wow, finally a topic that I feel confident commenting on. I am a retired firefighter and have had a little training on fire systems.
The onboard system is designed, as stated above, to simply buy you some time to get out of the car. IF it completely extinguishes the fire, that is a plus, but don't bet your life on it. Glenn is also right about the Halon system working by replacing the oxygen in the area of the fire, so unless the nozzles are completely out of the airstream, they will work better when sitting still. Another little goody about Halon is that you don't want to be sitting in a cloud of Halon and trying to breath. Remember that replaces the oxygen part? So, stop the car, pull the pin, and get the hell out while holding your breath. Sounds like a lot to do in a little time, but you would be surprised at the things people can do when there is fire licking around them.
I still have a Halon system in my car, and I they are still sold, albeit with a different variation of Halon than was originally used. The SPA system is a AFFF system which makes a foam that leaves a film on the surface that is sprayed. Again, if there is high air flow through the area they will not be as useful as if he car were sitting still. The solution in the bottles is water based ( hence the A for aqueous), but I am not familiar with what other chemical they use in the mix. In the old days back before dirt was invented, the stuff mixed with the water was protein. Aka animal fats and such, and it was known as protein foam. AFFF was a big breakthrough because in the beginning they used a form of concentrated detergent, but the biggest advantage was not having to turn the foam containers over every so many days to keep the protein parts from settling to the bottom. My guess would be the fact that the SPA solution is water based may be the reason for the re-inspection every two years.
Anyway, hope some of this trivia has been useful to somone. Wayne ( Now you may be able to figure out what ROF stands for)

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GonMad SPBG

#13

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03/28/08 20:46:23

ROFracing wrote:
(snip) Another little goody about Halon is that you don't want to be sitting in a cloud of Halon and trying to breath. Remember that replaces the oxygen part? So, stop the car, pull the pin, and get the hell out while holding your breath. (snip)

While I totally concur with the recommendation, it isn't that big an issue. In the telecomm world this was a real concern, because when a multi-hundred pound halon system goes off the noise alone is scary, and the automatic reaction to fear is an intake of breath. Plus the not-so-minor detail that by the time you got your wits about you and found an exit, you might have been in the cloud for almost a minute in a big switching center, since the distribution system is designed to inert the entire area in 10 seconds, not just the burning area. The Halon doesn't eliminate the oxygen, it reduces it (by about half, if memory serves). It won't support flame, but it is still breathable, albeit to a lesser extent. It was more important to get the hell out than it was to hold your breath while trying.

Marty

Marty Bose - #1 Gopher, GonMad Racing

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Greg Piet

#14

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Posts: 175

03/29/08 18:30:42

Stan wrote:
So, if they can't send you a refilled bottle, how does one buy a fire bottle in the first place?

Pegasus will sell you fire bottle kits.

I had a 20yo powder extinguisher that an elderly neighbor gave me...

The gauge said it was full, and it wasn't in the way so I left it sitting in the garage.

Quite recently another house had a front yard bush catch fire (due to a little punk kid flicking a cigarette). So I grabbed my current and my ancient extinguisher to stop the neighborhood from burning down.

Using the old one first it was fine... it put out the fire and all was well.

So now I we have to replace a carbon fiber bottle more frequently than a FIA safety harness?

Also for those that have a Halon systems are they done with it as I only see foam systems over on Pegasus?

From the accidental activation of the fire suppression system I really like the halon idea. I cant imagine what a PITA a foam system would be if it got turned on by mistake.

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ROFracing

#15

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Posts: 20

03/31/08 09:46:49

Marty is correct about the volume of Halon in one of the systems that are in our cars, however, I have seen people mount a nozzle for the halon system on the roll cage and aimed at the driver's face. Not a good thing. Human nature being what it is, most people aren't going to think about breathing the halon when there is a fire anyway, but I believe most would recommend having the nozzle aimed lower on the body. Also, with most of our cars, there is no roof, so the chances of still having good air to breath are better than if you are inside a tin top. As with most anything that is of danger to the human body the keys are exposure time and the concentration of the product.
Ironically, if memory serves me correctly, one of the selling points of the AFFF systems when they were first introduced for use in cars was the ability to refill them at the track. We are basically talking about a pressurized water extinguisher with some chemical additive. One of the first marketing deals was that you could buy the additive and simply refill the container with the correct amount of water, add the goodies, and charge it with air pressure. Apparently there have been a lot of changes since then. I know that there are a lot of regulations governing pressurized containers. Perhaps the SPA's have fallen under that blanket of regulations.

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