Limiting compression?

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Jean Luc 8 Ball	Limiting compression?		Lead	[-]
Registered User Posts: 340 01/17/08 21:21:17	Tags : None This surely has been discussed in years' past but I was wondering if there might be any current interest amongst the DSR "investors" to limit compression in our motors to render them more reliable and less costly. In 2007 and with the exception of the Runoffs, I ran a "built" motor with compression "just north of stock", put over 31 hrs on it before freshening it up and had no failures whatsoever . It appears that for 2008, high compression, hand-grenade, "run-off"-caliber engines will be the norm competition and I fear that the added cost of having to freshen an engine every couple of weekends (to keep them from letting go) might scare away potential newcomers as well as keep those such as myself from running as many events as they might otherwise have run . I know, I know....this is currently in the "spirit" of the class (no holds barred) but "they" are looking for ways to differentiate DSR from CSR and I thought that this might be a way (rather than possibly merging the two classes into one). Thoughts? Jean-Luc Afterthought: I guess I should've posted this under the "Rules Discussion" topic.
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BobVR	Re: Limiting compression?	#1	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 71 01/17/08 22:59:41	Adding some rules around motors to limit the cost and add reliability is a great idea. There is no safe haven for development at any cost any more, just look at the engines in F1. Participation will increase, which in turn leads to closer racing, everybody wins.
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RussMcB	.	#2	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 237 01/18/08 00:03:15	The open engine rule is the biggest reason keeping me out of DSR. The FB engine rule (admittedly, far from perfect), at least makes it easier to be more competitive when you cannot afford expensive engine mods.
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MAC Racing	Compression limits	#3	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 57 01/18/08 00:14:51	I am new to DSR but when I started looking at DSR one of the appealing parts were the open rules. Ability to experiment and design. One of the other reasons was that motorcycle motors were reliable and inexpensive. I am leaving a class where the costs went up and up as we got faster and faster, the motors were 15 to 20K and needed freshened twice a year 5K each time. So even though I like the open rules I would support limits on the highest dollar items, Motors for one. Compression would be easy to monitor and directly effect longevity. We all realize racing is expensive but if the cost to compete only continue to go up I think we will lose drivers to other classes Mat
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ted arken	Re: Compression limits	#4	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 2721 01/18/08 03:32:45	Good idea but what CR will you pick? What happens when the stock CR goes over that? Outlaw the motor, or have to install turbo pistons to drop the compression. There have always been "runoffs" motors, and thats not likely to change. 31 hours is pretty good reliability for the "non-bullet" motor. If you want to increase reliability, figure out how to enforce some form of rev limiter. I don't think thats feasible........
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Jean Luc 8 Ball	Re: Compression limits	#5	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 340 01/18/08 10:37:12	*Quote:* what CR will you pick? I don't know. Perhaps stock for a given engine or some "reasonable" percentage above stock? *Quote:* If you want to increase reliability, figure out how to enforce some form of rev limiter. Assuming that limiting compression is not feasible, then any other factor that might decrease engine un-reliability while keeping it simple and do so without taking away the creativity of the class should be considered. However, should it turn out that nothing is really feasible, then so be it..... .
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Tom Bootz	Re: Compression limits	#6	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 108 01/18/08 11:02:11	*Quote:* It appears that for 2008, high compression, hand-grenade, "run-off"-caliber engines will be the norm Jean Luc, can you epand a bit on this statement? What is different in 2008 over '07, '06, etc.? Tom
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Jean Luc 8 Ball	Re: Compression limits	#7	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 340 01/18/08 11:19:02	Hey Tom: That's a very valid question and thinking about it, I guess really nothing.
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STRAN 04	Re: Compression limits	#8	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 148 01/18/08 13:30:34	I would be for it ...but the reason for me is that I have a VERY limited budget. I still love the fun factor and personal satisfaction of being closer to "competitive" with a low budget effort. If you look close....the smile on my face is just as big as Jean-Luc's after a race...he can attest to that. Just my 2 cents worth! Brian Lindstrand Prince LSR DSR #04
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Unregistered(d)	All for it!	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 0 01/18/08 14:01:29	1 limit compression to Stock! 2 add a claiming rule ( for a little extra insurance ) 3 add weight to All the Frickin WF1's. (just kidding JL) But seriously, There's plenty of room for innovation within the areo aspects. Chasing both areo and engine devlopment are limiting the growth and long term stability of this class.
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Unregistered(d)	compression ratio	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 0 01/18/08 14:09:52	I guess i wonder how you are going to control the CR?? Pistons from the factory are 12.5 to one, so do you state that you must use factory pistons? instead of 13.0 or 13.5 or 14.0. You can then can use a .10 thinner head gasket or shave the head .10-.20 both will increase CR i guess i wonder how to inforce it?
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Jean Luc 8 Ball	Re: All for it!	#11	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 340 01/18/08 14:55:29	*Quote:* 3 add weight to All the Frickin WF1's. (just kidding JL) Actually Mike, I'm all for this. 1,000Lbs. would be more realistic. *Quote:* I guess i wonder how you are going to control the CR?? I was thinking a simple compression gage. You know, the kind that screws into the spark plug locations and measures PSI. Determine what PSI is stock for a given model of motorcycle engine and allow X% over this value (if anything at all). Or to make it simpler, establish a maximum value which would apply to all MC engines within our 1 liter displacement.
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KMA4444	Re: All for it!	#12	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 341 01/18/08 15:46:50	Cranking compression is influenced by cam timing as well as compression so a compression gauge might not be exactly what one would use. Now a "whistler", which the club already has, is capable of measuring compression on an assembled engine. Easy. I'd not be opposed to either a compression or RPM limit. One thing that looks different this year, at least from the two Florida races is that it is gonna take a Runoffs quality engine to win down here. If that is the cost then so be it, but it won't encourage growth for the class. I talked with two different folks during the two weekends that decided to go FB instead of DSR because of the cost of an engine program. Even though their real desire was to run a sportsracer. MallenAlley.com Kevin Allen
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MAC Racing	FB vs DSR	#13	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 57 01/18/08 16:35:44	I have been looking at DSR for a few years and like the new aero and new cars and speeds. When the corvette became so expensive I decided to switch I was advised to consider FB because the stock motor rules. I liked DSR better but I know I am not the only one looking at the costs when deciding on a class. Now with the winning cars and expense for the season climbing it wont foster growth. The racers willing to spend more are fewer than those on a budget. As far as limits, I dont know enough about the motorcycle motors but I would say a compression number would have to be chosen so different motors could be competitive. If a motor goes over this limit stock then the rule would have to be evaluated and changed or dont run that motor. The compression is tested on other motors in the SCCA so this would not be a new procedure. Also I dont know if it would make a difference on our type of motors but would a restrictor plate and the compression limits help limit motors so a more stock configuration, ie. better expense and longevity be feasible. Also would it allow more motors to be competitive? Mat
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Juan Montalvo	All for it	#14	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 54 01/18/08 16:39:46	Quote by Jean Luc: "Actually Mike, I'm all for this. 1,000Lbs. would be more realistic." After encouraging conversations with several DSR competitors, including Jean Luc, at Sebring and Homestead about weight I sent a request to the comp board asking for 1000 lbs. The comp board responds to numbers so if you agree, or disagree, let your opinion be known. Jean Luc brought up the compression ratio idea. Getting 31 hours out of a just slightly more compressed motor is a great thing. He set several lap records and won a bunch last year. Lots of seat time accounts for a large part of his results. Not having to change engines, or even worry about it, had to have helped. Perhaps the engine gurus ( George) can suggest what would be reasonable. Stock + 1, + 1.5?. Or a max (14 +/-) Ideas? I've also heard about the switch to FB. Reasons include engine costs, increasing carbon fiber costs (a formula car body is a whole lot less than a SR). I don't want a spec class. I like to see the technical advancements, etc. However, a reasonable limit to some factors have to result in better racing (and participation). Juan Montalvo
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Marty Nygard	Engine Limits	#15	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 214 01/18/08 19:49:36	No longer having a car, I kinda hesitate to say anything. However, when you are discussing limits on the dominate motors in the class, don't forget the other class options. On a good day, a two stroke makes more HP than the best bike motor. Mr. Ruepert would love to sell you one. What about the currently unlimited boost turbo option? Be careful what you wish for. The class isn't broken yet; it's just too expensive for people like me anymore. Marty
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ReynardDSR	Re: Engine Limits	#16	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 19 01/18/08 20:48:40	Flat bottoms Stock readily available motorcycle engines 1,050 lbs A spec Goodyear and Hoosier tire No turbos No 2-stokes Still plenty of room for innovation in MANY areas Let the fighting begin...
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ted arken	Re: Engine Limits	#17	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 2721 01/18/08 20:53:47	*Quote:* After encouraging conversations with several DSR competitors, including Jean Luc, at Sebring and Homestead about weight I sent a request to the comp board asking for 1000 lbs. Juan, is this just for WF1s? If so, well, I don't care, make it 1500. If its for all chassis, then you need to do your homework. There are other cars that have been around for years that cost less than half of a WF1. True, they aren't as competitive, but their drivers don't care, and they're probably never going to the runoffs, but will still enter nationals. Now you want to make them add weight, be more uncompetitive, and unless they do so be underweight if rolled over the scales. Good way to put another nail in national racing.
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BobVR	Re: Engine Limits	#18	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 71 01/18/08 21:29:40	Juan has it right. I have spent the last week in discussion with two other former SR competitors looking to do something new this year and currently we are considering everything but C/DSR, due to cost. It might be an interesting poll to see how many people would return to the SR family if the rules limited the cost of running at the front. It would be easy to move to 1,000 lbs., engine rules similar to IMSA L2, (not necessarily the same motor, but pick a motor of choice and set similar rules) and leave everything else status quo. That does not take away from the spirit of the class. Most racers want to compete and the cost of competition in this class prevents participation. For those looking to make up numbers that is great, this is club racing come and have fun, but it would be nice to set rules that allow for more cost effective competition at the front of the grid. The class is only going to grow (maybe just survive) if more people join in and the racers I know only care about winning. It is interesting that it is exactly the opposite of S2, that class needs to move forward with a new engine package and a sequential box. Pinto motor and 4 speed H pattern were great back when Reagan was President. Finding balance can be tricky.
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GonMad SPBG	Re: Engine Limits	#19	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 435 01/18/08 21:48:58	I don't think this is worth going for. There will always be someone who will spend the money for extra horsepower. If it isn't compression, it will be cams. IF you use the F1000 engine rules, the guy will spend his money to blueprint his motor to the fast side of the factory tolerances. So what if it wears out sooner? I'm reminded of a long, long time ago when we had Jennings build us a hotrod stroker EFI BDJ. The darn thing would make almost 300 HP, and rev to about 11,500. The only problem was that he stated that every 500 RPM over 10K that we used regularly would cut the engine life in half. If we had used 11,500 it would have been a 2 race motor. We ran it just past 10K and it lasted a whole season. So let your checkbook be your guide; you want to go faster, spend the extra money and rev it higher, it will work! Marty Marty Bose - #1 Gopher, GonMad Racing
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MAC Racing	current 900 lb cars	#20	[url]	[-]
Registered User Posts: 57 01/18/08 21:51:25	How many current cars are at the 900 limit. And if these cars are not competitive will they ever be compared to the cars coming out? And I am not saying they are not competitive, it was in the post above, I have not been around long enough to know who is competitive or not. But if the current cars coming out are more competitive and would be more cost effective at 1000 lbs, in other words not needing to use more expensive materials and being able to do them ourselves wouldnt that be better for the class? How much less competitive would the 900 lbs cars be at 1000 lbs compared to the advantage we might gain in the future? Mat
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